Ozarks Jeep Thing Club
Public Forums => Fabricators Forum => Topic started by: junkyard on 07/17/07 - 08:41PM
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this project was for a customer
it came to mewith no motor, trans and transfer hanging underneath, seats out, top off, body parts sitting next to it,tail gate and lower panel missing and the body in bad shape.
plans
350 out of an 80 corvette
black and yellow corbeau seats in front
black corbeau rear seat
sport cage
new paint
sm465 with attached np205
aluminum radiator
when i got it, it was in sad shape. there was a definate plan for it, nice street driving and some trail riding. must have a family style cage and nice back seat for the little ones.
what did we do?
we installed the corvette 350 using my own design motor mounts, used the existing transfercase crossmember, just modified it.
the motor was set high in the body, since it only has a 4 inch lift, center of gravity is not an issue. the motor was moved as far back as possible. to keep things cool, a 2 core aluminum radiator was used. custom mounts allow it to be changed in a matter of just a few minutes ad is big enough to keep the small block plenty cool on the hottest days.
since the them for the motor and trans is heavy duty and reliablity, the chevy 465 was used. the jeep came with a 3 speed originally. to make the shifting easier and less complex, the clutch is now hydraulic.
once the motor and trans were stuffed and mounted, we turned our attention to the interior. i told the customer that the stock cage would not help him incase of a roll over. since he is not going to do anything remotely extreme, we decided on one of my sport cages. this cage ties into the cowl/dash area, the floor board, and the rear fenderwells. he declined tying it into the frame even though i recommended it. im sure he will be back to have that upgrade done.
the seat were mounted to the cage and it was made to closely fit his hard top.
since there was no tailgate or lower rear valance, a used one was welded on.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/06-03-07_1409.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1706.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1707.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1711.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1710.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1713.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1713-1.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1714.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1715.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/w1r3ch4s3r/07-17-07_1718.jpg)
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did the owner want the front cage mounted like that? looks like a few small screws, and sheet metal are what mounts it, you were soo close to the floor, why not go all the way.
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there are 3 bolts that hold the front of that cage to the dash. the dash is the strongest part of the jeep tub. it was mounted like that due to -- the clutch pedal, dimmer switch, and e brake. with the owner not being super tall, the seats being mounted comfortably and so forth, that was the best plce to mount it. had he wanted to pay to have it tied into the frame, it would gave gone down to the floor via some plate welded up to create strength and allow for the space needed for the other stuff.
this design is much stronger than if it went to the windshield only. remember i tried to get him to pay to have it tied in, but he didnt want it. so basically this is just a little more protection than that of a stock cage. actually compared to the factory cj cage for that year, this is about 3 times the strength and protection of the old one.
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makes since!
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Them 3 lill bitty screws gonna keep them bars from bustin loose & jabbin someon in the leg when that thing roll? Do leavin them big o boogers on them welds & then covern the cracks with paint help the strenth?
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If it's good enough for OR Fab, it's good enough for me.
(http://www.orfab.com/images/orf%20product/cja31.jpg)
We did the same on my CJ5 and am confident in it's capabilities.
Keith
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Them 3 lill bitty screws gonna keep them bars from bustin loose & jabbin someon in the leg when that thing roll? Do leavin them big o boogers on them welds & then covern the cracks with paint help the strenth?
they look good to me, one thing i have learned about welding is, doesnt matter if they look like art work, as long as the penetrate and are strong.
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" A pretty weld is just like a chrome bumper... they both work but the appearance doesn't matter."
Maybe not, but nice welds show attention to detail. Or the lack thereof.
Fat girls are easy. But..................... never mind.
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Please allow me to interject a little positive light on this, and a bit of constructive critisism also. Geoff hasn't replied to anything, probly because he's a businessman, and he doesn't want to alienate a future customer. If that's the case, then he has a lot of class, and should be commended.
Let's begin with the positives:
Geoff's cutting & forming the cage is great. His bends are even, and the tubes are all parallel & evenly spaced. The seat frame & brackets look great, and the welds are very nicely done. See the blueish/purple, (whatever, i'm colorblind) circles in the first picture:
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/tanyj/07-17-07_1713-1.jpg)
But if you look at the bracket & front hoop (circled in the lighter color) & specificly where the arrow is, there is a large void around the tube, and the welding puddle didn't penetrate it at all, it's just kind of "there".
In the second picture, all the overhead vertical welds circled are a bit sloppy, but getting those to look good takes time & practice. The blueish/purple ones look good, though.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/tanyj/07-17-07_1718.jpg)
In the third picture, notice the 2 different welds side by side. The left one (blueish/purple arrow) looks very good, and it has good penetration, due to a wide puddle, and a flat bead. The lighter arrow shows a void in the weld, and has a surface bubble that shows very little penetration followed by a void, and another surface bubble with a narrow puddle & bead. This bead most likely did not penetrate well, but without an x-ray machine, we'll never know.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/tanyj/07-17-07_1715.jpg)
But one thing all the photos show is someone who is learning a new trade & doing quite well with the layout, bending, cutting/coping, measureing, etc. He just needs to go take a few welding classes at the local votec to learn the finer points of welding mild steel. A long certification class isn't necessary because i doubt Geoff will be fabing up any stainless, titanium, or aluminum frames, cages or tubs in the near future.
Keep up the good work Geoff.
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whitehead was here.
Please fellas. Don't make me come back.
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i appreciate the comments, both positive and negative. i also respect the critisism.
here are my thoughts. i did my research and the dash mounts work. i was sketchy too, but as Keith said OR does them and so do others. i do not know the backgrounds of everyone posting, nor do i know if they own a shop.
from the pics, you can not honestly tell all those things. some points are true, i know as i did the welding and a couple spots i agree.
please when you make a comment, make sure you read the top.
in my fab shop, my customers get what they envisioned. ask wheelchairman. he has to be the hardest guy to build stuff for. he loves what he got. the owner of the yellow jeep loves what he got. he got exactly what he envisioned.
i use 2 methods for welding, the circle and the c method. this rig was built outside due to moving the shop and not being able to stop business to do it. with outside environments, the most skilled welders will tell you that it is harder to acheive the perfect looking weld.
i assure you that i am not a newbie at this, but have not had my shop open for many years. i am not poison spider or bluetorch and do not have the highest dollars benders notchers and cnc equipment, yet.
i will say that i have tested my cages and they hold. barrets was laid hard on its cage when he was riding in it the first time. i have had several others roll and the cage deflect less than 3/8s inch on a hard roll.
one point i should make, is if you point something out, give your background, tell how many rigs you have built and such. i am willing to adapt and learn from everyone. that is why i am successfull and booked up till christmas. my yard looks like a jeep auction and i have more that still need to be brought over.
again, the customer is very happy, i have more jobs lined up since building that rig, and you should really have a more close up pic to judge fairly. some of those welds, the spots you see are overlap from welding around, or the push pull style weld, or even maybe some filler from a weldthru spot. rest assured my welds have been tested in real time, not xrayed, and i do not claim to be the best out there.
however, i will build what is asked of me, and in a closed environment, welds look much prettier. take comfort in at least knowing i dont use a stick welder on cages and dont fill holes with bolt material. all my notches have less than 1/8 gap. most have zero.
i look forward to more comments, since that makes me not have to ask.
thanks
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very well put Geoff and as " the hardest guy to build for" I hope you have fun with my newest project and I will be the first to say that I have faith in your abilities as I have one cage built by you and gonna have another on this. :beerchug:
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Like i said, a class act. (ABSOLUTELY no sarcasm implied here)
In the 80s i was a fabricator at a shop named "Rocket Mixer" in south St. Louis county. We built Rocket cement mixers (mr. obvious) with parts fabbed completely and totally at our shop. The only items we bought complete were Hydraulic motors, shift knobs, and hardware. I got a lot of welding & fab experience in the years i was there. (boilermaker's local 27)
After almost 80 years in business, the company closed & was bought by an out of state company & i worked as a dock manager for a huge sporting goods retailer for a couple years. I was charged with logging in, logging out, distributing, & ordering merchandise for an 80k square foot department store. That got old FAST.
I went to work for a mass production machine shop (called screw machines) & progressed up the line & spent several years setting up 4 machines with 2 operators under my charge, and have extensive knowledge & experience with all types of metal fab, including aluminum, ferrous, non-ferrous, & 316 stainless steel, marine brass, all types of bearing steel, as well as mild steel (cold rolled to be specific). I was charged with producing literally millions of mass produced parts for everything from pen tips, plungers for ratchets (you know like the Craftsman push button ones), to precision formed hydraulic fittings.
It was a filthy job, and i was wanting to move, so i took advantage of the cash i had saved, and moved to Boliver for a couple of years, where i worked as a handyman/carpenter/whatever i could find. Oh, i also atended college there, and was a pastoral major.
I took a job as a carpenter with a commercial company in Springfield, got married, and switched jobs a couple more times, before i took the last job i will ever have, and that is a maintenance man at St. John's Hopital.
I am charged with repairing & maintaining a multi-billion dollar facility. That's just a fancy way of saying i make sure the poop leaves the building, the life sustaining outlets (oxygen, med air, and vacuum/evac) in the facility are in proper working order, and the staff has all it's simple comforts met.
Those are my qualifications to critique your work, and i can tell a lot from the pictures posted, because i do know what to look for. To be honest, i thought your worked sucked, when i first saw your early rigs that you were fabbing for yourself, but now, your builds are looking better every time. (except those FAWKING flying batteries)
I build very little of my own Heep stuff, but i don't ever plan to go as big as the ones you or the Kellers run, so i am happy sticking with Jeep heritage equipment. The rest i can do as i have the time. I'm also growing more lazy the older i get, so it's much easier for me to pick up a few hour's overtime, and pay someone to set up my gears. I've done enough of that. Let the man trying to feed his family set them up, and make a few bucks. That's how the American economy worked for a long time.
Thanks for listening.
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All I can say is my cage works, and my jeep is quite a bit different since the last time everyone saw it.
And...the battery never left the Jeep.
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i respect that.
when i got out of the marine corps and moved here, i lost access to the shop on base. there i had all the nice tools. i owned a pressure washing business/ dock restoration. i had to start aquiring the tools i needed and didnt have them for a long time. what i did was use the machanics shop close to me. they let me use the welders and such for working on their rigs.
most of the rigs i built were not for the rocks. i started on the rock crawling build just before i got out of the marine corps. most of the wheeling their are offcamber trails and swamps and mud. oh and tellico.
so the build scene was different. i was also working with a guy who competed at top truck. we built alot of tall, scratch that TALL trucks capable of extreme trails riding.
keeping them low and slow wasnt really the issue. we built duallys with 44 inch swampers, blazers with 44s and so forth. alot of SASs too.
when you use someone elses welder it takes you a while to get it to work like you want.
i am in a point where i have the tools needed and can do more.
what i have to say in my defense, knowing what the welds and heat discoloring that i had, the cage is in now fear of colapsing or harming anyone.
i am trying pretty hard to make all of my welds uniform. it is hard to do outdoors.
currently i am still waiting for the title for my building to be cleared so i can move in.
again i appreciate your input, and now put more weight to it.
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I specifically didn't make any comments towards the fab, because I also build and fab. I don't build complete vehicles yet, due to space and time. I build eveything as if it is mine, and that is extremely time consuming.
Since, I have an engineering background (regular job) I have a "unique" way of looking at things. I don't always agree with comments made about strength and certain ways that things are fabbed but I try to refrain from really ripping in on things. I have asked questions at times tho.
But - to say tell me what your qualifications are before you add any weight to someone's opinion is a little silly. With the intardnet these days everyone is an expert!! LOL (I have the same attitude sometimes about things, tho.)
Geoff has been building rigs for a few years and posting them. I think that with the amount of information and builds that he posts that eventually there will be criticism. He takes it well mostly and is more than open about WHY he does things. He is absolutely correct tho - give the customer EXACLTY what they want or more. I have done it too. I didn't like it BUT I did it.
Where did that guy from OK go tho?
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all my notches have less than 1/8 gap. most have zero.
i look forward to more comments, since that makes me not have to ask.
thanks
I saw this comment & thought I'd comment on it a little.
When MIG welding Tube (Any welding for that manner), there needs to be a slight bevel for proper penetration throughout the entire thickness of the material. On the weld neck flanges I used to make at my prior job (CNC Machinist) this angle was 37-1/2 Degrees. Why the 1/2...I don't know but that was the 'norm'.
Anyways...I just want to point out to people that you should be aware of your bevels on the tubing. I always put a bevel on the end of every piece of tube we lay down here at my shop.
Imagine two seperate flat plates with the ends pushed up together touching. Without a bevel on each side of the plate it would be impossible to lay a good weld down that got good penetration.
There's no difference for tubing.
Although your notch may fit perfect....take a second to put a bevel all the way around the tube. It doesn't need to be a perfect angle, just make sure it will allow you to get full penetration on the tubing. This notch will also help you to get a better looking weld most of the time because the weld will have room to "fall" down into the joint.
That's just my experience & thought I'd share.
My Credentials: Owner King's Off Road Enterprise
# of Rigs Built: Lots!
I hear you on building what the customer wants....we have Jeep in here now like that. They guy wants it to be a skyscraper! I have my reasons for not making it that tall, & I've relayed these to the customer. Even though I shared my experiences with him on rigs that were too tall, he wants to try it like this & change it later if need be. I am however setting up the 4 link with adjustable mounts so that IF we lower it, not everything will have to be redone. Just something that won't take any more time to do right now, but will save a lot later on.
-Kenneth
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i didnt add the fact that i bevel the ends of the tubing. i just take that as a must in the step.
in this business, anyone who buys some tools becomes a fab guy. brad and i bump heads over some designs, but we both see the ways of the other, that is why i love building rigs. i love that i can see an idea and change it to make it exactly what i envision.
i used to think i had to be the biggest or the best, but i truely enjoy seeing happy people in rigs i build.
i have yet to get my rig going, and as brad knows, when you build to pay bills, you get the short end of the stick. i am gracious enough to have a friend and customer like barret. he lets me try things out on his and brake stuff. well i think he has ended me braking stuff though.
customers and friends like keith, who is kinda like a hero to me, with his nothing holding me back attitude and his passion for doing things folks think he cant. i love building something and someone who doesnt know how to wheel, all of a sudden researches and starts camping and wheeling and showing off their pride in what i have built for them.
i take extreme pride in what i build, and that in turn takes longer for me to build things. i find it very hard to take critisism sometimes. i dont know alot of people personally. so their backgrounds are non existant to me.
i do appreciate when someone asks me why i did that. through the computer, you never know their true demeanor. so i try to look at it as if they really want to know. i am happy to tell my thoughts. if they are wrong and justifiably wrong, then i have gained some inexspensive knowledge.
one of these days i will complete my rig and wheel it alot. for know, i will watch folks like wheelchairman, project92yj, barret and others enjoy what i created in their vision. the sad part about my rig, i get so far, then come up with a new design and then change mine all around. i get started for a week or two when i am slow, then get busy and it goes on the back burner.
i really appreciate the comment, i didnt like your work, but now im digging it, i see the improvement. i have to say that was the most honest down to earth comment i have had yet, and lets me know that i am on the right path.
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Cool man, I just didn't want people to read into that and be mislead.
I hear you on putting yours on the back burner. That's just the way it is sometimes.
I just put a V8 in mine, take it out...go tear stuff up, then pull it back in for the next round of mods & guess what....it's sitting on Jackstands waiting for me to get some time. LOL
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A buddy told me, if you want your weld to be strong you've got to pile it on.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/alarose41/horriblewelds.jpg)
I just like to put my stick in there and get it really hot!
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hahaha I see someone has been readin the thread on pirate titled schedule 40
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=605639
I just hope and pray thats not really yours!
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I hope its not his as well. I did see that on Pirate, gotta love the stuff those guys come up with.
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Kev Glad to see you Back around!!!!! Surprised you haven't made it to a Ranch Rocker run???
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Them 3 lill bitty screws gonna keep them bars from bustin loose & jabbin someon in the leg when that thing roll? Do leavin them big o boogers on them welds & then covern the cracks with paint help the strenth?
it does say on OR fabs website that the cage they make for the CJ's is made in enhance the appearence and not protect someone if involved in a rollover..
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all right who took pic. of my welds.